A Compilation Of Dialogues

008 Dialog Between Ismail, Jamil And Sam

Estimated reading: 1 minute 703 views

Hello, thank you for visiting Allah’s Word. How may I help you?

Ismail

Jamil

hey there please welcome

Ismail

i would like to ask if its true that no one would enter heaven unless he or she is a muslim

Jamil

Yes. The essential thing is believing in one God and His last and final messenger and following their way

Ismail

what if someone couldn’t believe in Muhammad as the final prophet? because there are lots of videos/evidence/arguments that show Muhammad wasn’t a prophet and to be honest they make sense in many cases

Jamil

Then there is an issue there because in an authentic hadith it says that no one hears of him and disbelieves in him but will not enter paradise
It is very essential

Ismail

I don’t understand the hadith
can u quote it please

Jamil

what I’m trying to say like is there any solid proof that Muhammad was the final prophet and he’s our only salvation? because like I said there are tons of evidence that prove otherwise

Jamil

God is the only salvation and the prophet was send to show us the way to Him and how to worship God.
We believe in both God and His messenger

Ismail

ok but I believe before we examine that if this person is truly a prophet of god we should examine his life , I don’t want to get into examples because there are tons of them .. what I want to know is how to reconcile that with Muhammad being our way to salvation

Jamil

The signs that prove the prophecy of Muhammad sallallaahu `alayhi wa sallam ( may Allah exalt his mention ) are numerous. Many books have been written to enumerate them and thoroughly discuss them. We would like to mention some of these signs as reported by Muslim scholars and which prove that Muhammad sallallaahu `alayhi wa sallam ( may Allah exalt his mention ) was a real Prophet including:

Ismail

– First, his good biography and high morals as well as the noble qualities that distinguished him. He was known before becoming a Prophet as a truthful and honest person, although the community where he lived was a society of ignorance. This was, perhaps, the most important sign of his prophecy. He was not known to have ever lied on people. So, why should he lie on be half of the Lord by claiming that he was a Prophet, if he was not a real Prophet?

Ismail

– Second, the powers and triumphs Allah gave him and the spread of the religion he preached, as well as the triumph of this religion over all existing religions in a short period of time. Had he been a liar, Allah would have humiliated and destroyed him as He did with those before him who falsely claimed Prophethood.

Ismail

– Third, the miracles Allah gave him as supporting evidence were beyond the ability of human beings and were beyond range of natural phenomena. The moon split for him, water gushed from his fingers, food became more abundant in his hands, and similar phenomena were authentically reported and happened in a way that could not be denied.

Ismail

– Fourth, the Prophet sallallaahu `alayhi wa sallam ( may Allah exalt his mention ) was backed by the greatest miracle which is the Quran. In fact, Quran was a challenge and remains a challenge for Arabs who were known to be good poets and eloquent speakers. Allah challenged them to write a single Surah (chapter) that would be similar to that of Quran, but the Arabs were unable to do so.

Ismail

Indeed, the challenge still endures, none of the Arabs throughout history – since the revelation of the Quran – was able to make anything that was even similar to it. No doubt that the Quran has been preserved intact until it came to us. Groups of people memorized it including children, adults, males and females. So generations brought the Quran to generations until it reached us as it was revealed 14 centuries ago.

Ismail

Hence, the Quran remains intact protected from distortion or alteration. Nothing has been added to it, nor taken from it. Quran is full of scientific facts that were verified only in these times of scientific investigation. No doubt that Muhammad who was illiterate would not have possessed this knowledge 14 centuries ago. Doesn’t this prove the authenticity of the Quran and that it is the Word of the Creator of the Universe who knows all its secrets?

Ismail

– Fifth, the things from the unseen that he (the Prophet sallallaahu `alayhi wa sallam ( may Allah exalt his mention )) informed us about. Some of them occurred during his life time. Others happened later. Some of these things happened to the Prophets, may Allah exalt their mention, who preceded him and some are still to occur. He also informed about the signs of The Day of Judgment, some of which had already been seen such as widespread killings and genocide, adultery and fornication and the consumption of the alcohol, outnumbering of males by females and the increased number of earthquakes, and afflictions,… etc.

Ismail

– Sixth, the testimony of some of the people of the Book that he was a true Prophet. Some of them believed in him like ‘Abdullah Ibn Salam may Allah be pleased with him who was a Jew as well as Negus (king of Abyssinia) who was a Christian. Some of the people of the Book certified that he was a Prophet from Allah but refused to follow him like Huyayy Ibn Akhtab.

Ismail

first point, there are examples that actually show that Muhammad wasn’t a moral person
if u like I can provide some

Jamil

Ok if we continue to debate it won’t actually prove anything

Ismail

exactly

Jamil

Because you’ll disapprove of my points an I’d do the same
Anyways anything else?
Are you already muslim?

Ismail

no I left it like 4 months ago

Jamil

Oh ok I see.
So what brings you here?

Ismail

I tried to understand what Christianity is about, but the doctrine of trinity that most Christians believe in didn’t make any sense to me
so I’m trying to reconcile with the “evil” things I learnt about Islam

Jamil

The word Trinity itself is not in the Bible. Also this creed was not formed during the time of Jesus. it was formed 325 AD at the Nicea Council. lets think: if Jesus was God himself, why did he pray to be saved? and to whom did he pray? to himself??

Ismail

We believe this : he is the way to God.. you can’t reach God except through the teachings of Jesus
during Moses’ time: Moses was the way.
The concept of Monotheism and One God is repeated in all divine religions

Ismail

Belief in True God (Allah) as the Supreme Being, the Creator and Sustainer of the Universe. Known as #Tawhid in Islam.
This concept of Oneness of God was stressed by #Moses in the Biblical passage Known as the “Shema,” or the Jewish creed of faith: “Hear, O Israel The Lord our God is one Lord” (Deuteronomy 6:4)

Ismail

It was repeated word-for-word approximately 1500 years later by #Jesus when he said “…The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; the Lord our God is one Lord.” (Mark 12:29)
Muhammad came along approximately 600 years later, bringing the same message again: “And your God is One God: there is no God but He (Allah)” (Qur’an 2:163)

Ismail

yes exactly it doesn’t make any sense
my issue now is how to reconcile / forget everything i learnt about Islam despite I couldn’t get satisfying answers to those arguments made by Christians

Jamil

Ok.

Ismail

bear with me, like how do you, as a Muslim, see these objections/arguments and still a Muslim
how could u

Jamil

Because I have certainty in my faith and I read the Quran which points out to me the clear signs of the existence of God and in the Quran He commands us to follow the messengers. The Quran cannot be produced of its like since that time
It truly is from Him alone.

Ismail

but again, what about the arguments that show its not from god , I’m sure u seen some
like take the verse where it says that semen comes from backbone and ribs .. we know today that its not true .. how do you reconcile with that

Jamil

You want to tell me the Quran is not from God?
with all the miracles it had?
It has miracles that science just proved

Ismail

I’m saying there are lots of evidence that show its not

Jamil

How did a human know that
1400 years ago lol

Ismail

know what?

Jamil

The scientific miracles
Scientists just discovered them
We did not have technology then

Ismail

dr Zakir naik said Quran is not a book of science and we shouldn’t treat it that way
can u give me one example..

Jamil

Yes but it has miracles
The perfect description of the process of creation in the mother’s womb
Human creation

Ismail

ok but the stages of embryologic development are shown to be not like what the Quran teaches , its debatable , but still we can find that Galen did say the same stages in the Quran hundred of years before Muhammad , also I read that Muhammad’s doctor learnt these stages when he was n Bukhara and when he came to Mecca he told them to the prophet
also u have the verse saying that semen comes from backbone and ribs .. that’s incorrect according to medicine

Jamil

Ok.

Ismail

so how do we reconcile with that? I’m asking you like a brother I don’t mean to mock or anything

Jamil

I ignore it

Ismail

why

Jamil

Because I am certain of my faith

Ismail

isn’t that a blind faith

Jamil

I read and study the Quran, it surely isn’t made up

Ismail

but i just show u one example and u said u ignore it

Jamil

Ignore the evidences trying to disapprove it
It is not new
People always tried to
since he was sent

Ismail

look i have a degree in medicine, i tried to make sense of that verse, looked it up tried to twist it left and right, but it just not right

Jamil

I see

Ismail

semen doesn’t come out from the backbone and the ribs …
and I’m sure you’d agree with me on that

Jamil

The testes and ovary are formed from the genital tubercle between the sulb and taraa’ib of the foetus. The sulb is the spinal column and the taraa’ib are the ribs. The testes and ovaries are formed in this exact region, i.e., between the backbone and the ribs, then the testes descend gradually until they reach the scrotum (outside the abdomen) at the end of the seventh month of gestation; the ovaries descend to the female’s pelvis.

Ismail

However, nourishment continues to reach the testes or ovaries via the circulatory, nervous and lymphatic systems from the point where they originated, i.e., from between the backbone and ribs. The arteries that supply the testes or ovaries come from the aorta, from between the backbone and the ribs, and the veins coming from the testes end in the same region, i.e., between the backbone and the ribs.

Ismail

The nerves to the testes and ovaries come from a group of nerves that exist beneath the stomach, between the backbone and the ribs. The lymphatic vessels also end in the same area, i.e., between the backbone and the ribs.

Can there be any doubt, after all this, that the testes and ovaries receive nourishment and blood from, and are connected to nerves that come from, between the backbone and the ribs?

Ismail

The material for formation of the sperm in the man and the eggs in the woman comes from an area between the backbone and the ribs, in addition to the fact that the sperm and eggs develop from cells that originate between the backbone and the ribs. So this verse is a complete miracle, as it says “from between the back-bone (as-sulb) and the ribs (at-taraa’ib)” and it does not say “from the backbone and the ribs”. The word “between” is not only eloquent; it is also scientifically precise.

Ismail

I don’t wanna get into details but that’s not 100% accurate
you can really refer to any embryologic textbook and see where the testes and ovaries originate from

Jamil

Ismail transferred the chat to Sam

Hey Jamil, sorry for the transfer experience, I think brother Ismail had something urgent come up
I’d love to continue the conversation

Sam

hi Sam
Would you like me to go through the above conversation, or would you like to start a fresh?

Jamil

well I think we wrapped it up , Ismail had nothing to provide with as u can see if u scroll up
its ok, ill be short

Jamil

I left Islam like 4 months ago, started studying Christianity, but the whole trinity doctrine still doesn’t make any sense to me.. I’m trying to get back to Islam but I find it hard to reconcile with everything i learnt about Islam because there were no answers to the objections and arguments

Jamil

Hmm I see
May I ask… At this moment, do you feel there is any religion on Earth that is more correct than Islam?

Sam

yes Judaism

Jamil

Well it’s unfortunate that you feel that way, because Judaism is a closed religion ^_^

Sam

I know, that’s why its off the list

Jamil

Do you think God would limit who could worship him?

Sam

exactly

Jamil

haha
That means that Islam is currently #1
Until you find something closer to the truth?

Sam

well I was born a Muslim
yes u can say that

Jamil

OK, well in that case I see no reason why you shouldn’t remain a Muslim, or come back to Islam for now… Sure you have questions, but questions have answers if you search for them

Sam

And honestly, how can God judge you on something that you tried to attain but never found?

Sam

actually if you wanna convert to Judaism its not 100% closed , u can , but they require that u already have great knowledge in the torah and the commandments (unlike in Islam where u just recite the shahada)

Jamil

It would also take a few years ^
And you would not be a “Full” Jew
Now what happens if you die while converting ^_^

Sam

but i already searched those arguments and couldn’t find any reasonable answer to any

Jamil

Brother Jamil… All we can do is our best
If you feel that the answers you found are not adequate enough
Then keep searching for the answers and ask God to guide you to the truth

Sam

Until then… You should stick with what you think is the closest to the truth
Our purpose in life is to worship God… And you are doing your best, clearly
You are searching for a way to worship him and want to follow the correct way

Sam

But nothing on your list seems closer to the truth than Islam
So logically, the best / safest thing to do, is come back to Islam and search other religions and search whatever questions you have while you are a Muslim

Sam

Because if it is indeed the truth, then you are on it
And you can always switch if you feel that there is something closer to the truth
What do you think about that?

Sam

well first of all i really wanna thank u a lot for being so kind and patient , like maybe you’re the first muslim in these previous 4 months who actually didn’t call me a fake muslim or emotionally troubled or whatever , so thank u for that

Jamil

Not a problem brother, it’s my pleasure. We’re all just trying our best, I don’t see the need to judge, I can assure you I have my own problems to deal with haha – and I don’t want others hating on my for that >_<

Sam

second , you’re right , but i just can’t reconcile with everything islamic anymore , idk how to explain this but i can’t now just go and pray and deep inside me all those arguments that show Muhammad is a false prophet still in my head , that’s hypocritical , that’s what I believe ..

Jamil

you’re a muslim, im sure u listened and heard lots of arguments against Islam and lets be honest , some of them make sense .. so how did u reconcile with that and stayed a muslim? I couldn’t

Jamil

Well I think there is something really important in that, sure you may have thoughts swirling in your head that Muhammad peace be upon him was a false prophet… But do you think for sure that he was false, or you just have doubts?

Sam

If it’s just doubts, then you should stick with what you feel is the closest to the truth and use that as a starting point

Sam

Which do you feel more strongly:
1- He was a prophet?
2 – He was a false prophet?

Sam

Jamil

Also in terms of arguments about Islam… Being on this Live Chat system and speaking with countless people who attack Islam… Trust me, I’ve seen it all… And I will tell you the most common problems you would find with any argument about Islam

Sam

If they talk about The Quran:
1. They use many different translations and paste them together to try to form a false argument
2. They do not understand the actual words used in the text
3. They argue a point that has no weight at all on the credibility of the Quran..

Sam

If they argue about hadith
1. They use weak or fabricated hadith
2. They (like in The Quran) rely on a translation that did not fully show the meaning of the Arabic words to make an argument
3. Flat out lie

Sam

Whenever a question comes to me about Islam, it would almost always land in one of these, and I have never not found an answer to one of their questions

Sam

If you feel that Muhammad peace be upon him was most likely a false prophet, then I think we should discuss that a bit as that is rather important as it is part of the shahada
What is the biggest thing that makes you feel that way about him?

Sam

do you believe in the Torah?

Jamil

I believe that Torah was from Allah just like The Gospel, however The Torah was once completely lost and has been altered from its original form
There are still some things in it which may be true, that I agree

Sam

Sure, I think that happened to the gospel and the Quran as well (verses being changed or lost)
Ok I will show you what Moses said in the Torah

Jamil

It did happen with The Gospel, but it did not happen with The Quran : )

Sam

The problem is… Since we know that The Torah was once lost and we know it was altered… how can we use it as a measure of true or false?

Sam

well that’s not quite true, Daniel Brubaker recently published his book “20 corrections in early qur’anic manuscripts” and he’s intending to publish a bigger book that shows tons of other corrections that deliberately , according to him , happened to these early manuscripts to fit with modern day hafs version of Quran 1924

Jamil

I think you are aware of that , also there’s this hadith that kinda shows Quranic verses were lost
It was narrated that ‘Aishah said:
“The Verse of stoning and of breastfeeding an adult ten times was revealed1, and the paper was with me under my pillow. When the Messenger of Allah died, we were preoccupied with his death, and a tame sheep came in and ate it.”

Jamil

1: These verses were abrogated in recitation but not ruling. Other ahadith establish the number for fosterage to be 5.
حدَّثَنَا أَبُو سَلَمَةَ، يَحْيَى بْنُ خَلَفٍ حَدَّثَنَا عَبْدُ الأَعْلَى، عَنْ مُحَمَّدِ بْنِ إِسْحَاقَ، عَنْ عَبْدِ اللَّهِ بْنِ أَبِي بَكْرٍ، عَنْ عَمْرَةَ، عَنْ عَائِشَةَ، ‏.‏ وَعَنْ عَبْدِ الرَّحْمَنِ بْنِ الْقَاسِمِ، عَنْ أَبِيهِ، عَنْ عَائِشَةَ، قَالَتْ لَقَدْ نَزَلَتْ آيَةُ الرَّجْمِ وَرَضَاعَةُ الْكَبِيرِ عَشْرًا وَلَقَدْ كَانَ فِي صَحِيفَةٍ تَحْتَ سَرِيرِي فَلَمَّا مَاتَ رَسُولُ اللَّهِ ـ صلى الله عليه وسلم ـ وَتَشَاغَلْنَا بِمَوْتِهِ دَخَلَ دَاجِنٌ فَأَكَلَهَا ‏.‏
Grade : Hasan (Darussalam)

Jamil

Actually I’ve seen a bit of this to an extent… Brother Jamil… The corrections that are pointed out… Are corrections in a single text that were handwritten incorrectly hahaha, when I watched a video about it and saw the “corrections” that were being pointed out it was actually funny

Sam

good question, we cannot be sure if the Torah is correct or not unless Muhammad told us so, i looked it further up and i found out this hadith

Jamil

Narrated Abdullah Ibn Umar:
A group of Jews came and invited the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) to Quff. So he visited them in their school.
They said: AbulQasim, one of our men has committed fornication with a woman; so pronounce judgment upon them. They placed a cushion for the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) who sat on it and said: Bring the Torah. It was then brought. He then withdrew the cushion from beneath him and placed the Torah on it saying: I believed in thee and in Him Who revealed thee.

Jamil

He then said: Bring me one who is learned among you. Then a young man was brought. The transmitter then mentioned the rest of the tradition of stoning similar to the one transmitted by Malik from Nafi'(No. 4431).

Jamil

حدَّثَنَا أَحْمَدُ بْنُ سَعِيدٍ الْهَمْدَانِيُّ، حَدَّثَنَا ابْنُ وَهْبٍ، حَدَّثَنِي هِشَامُ بْنُ سَعْدٍ، أَنَّ زَيْدَ بْنَ أَسْلَمَ، حَدَّثَهُ عَنِ ابْنِ عُمَرَ، قَالَ أَتَى نَفَرٌ مِنْ يَهُودَ فَدَعَوْا رَسُولَ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم إِلَى الْقُفِّ فَأَتَاهُمْ فِي بَيْتِ الْمِدْرَاسِ فَقَالُوا يَا أَبَا الْقَاسِمِ إِنَّ رَجُلاً مِنَّا زَنَى بِامْرَأَةٍ فَاحْكُمْ بَيْنَهُمْ فَوَضَعُوا لِرَسُولِ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم وِسَادَةً فَجَلَسَ عَلَيْهَا ثُمَّ قَالَ ‏”‏ ائْتُونِي بِالتَّوْرَاةِ ‏”‏ ‏.‏ فَأُتِيَ بِهَا فَنَزَعَ الْوِسَادَةَ مِنْ تَحْتِهِ فَوَضَعَ التَّوْرَاةَ عَلَيْهَا ثُمَّ قَالَ ‏”‏ آمَنْتُ بِكِ وَبِمَنْ أَنْزَلَكِ ‏”‏ ‏.‏ ثُمَّ قَالَ ‏”‏ ائْتُونِي بِأَعْلَمِكُمْ ‏”‏ ‏.‏ فَأُتِيَ بِفَتًى شَابٍّ ثُمَّ ذَكَرَ قِصَّةَ الرَّجْمِ نَحْوَ حَدِيثِ مَالِكٍ عَنْ نَافِعٍ ‏.‏
Grade : Hasan (Al-Albani)

Jamil

Because no one would say that every scribe would handwrite the Quran correctly in any one attempt… Rather their work would need to be revised by an editor and mistakes corrected

Sam

but he showed that these corrections happened waaay after those manuscripts initially released , u know , different ink different handwriting style … its debatable

Jamil

The claim of the verse of suckling being taken out of The Quran is actually false… I’ll tell you why. Because The Quran was not complete until The Prophet peace be upon him said so.

Sam

As you know The Quran was revealed over many years and there were revelations that were not part of The Quran, like Hadith Qudsi

Sam

So any revelation that was not included in the final compilation of The Quran that prophet Muhammad peace be upon him ordered (verbal compilation, not written), then it would not be considered “in” The QUran to begin with

Sam

“but he showed that these corrections happened waaay after those manuscripts initially released , u know , different ink different handwriting style … its debatable”
^ This actually doesnt disprove the Quran then at all ^_^
A mistake can be overlooked, but when the mistake is then noticed, people are obligated to correct it

Sam

maybe you are right , its debatable
but this is not what i want to say

Jamil

Whos to say anyone ever even used those manuscripts until they were correct, there are too many unknowns
But what we do know is that people makes mistakes and God does not, and The Quran in my house is the same as any other Quran in the world
The words are the same

Sam

So the proof is on the side of The Quran, not against it
Brother, may I please ask a favour?

Sam

yes

Jamil

I actually need to go pray real quick
May you please give me 10 mins?

Sam

ok I will wait 🙂

Jamil

OK, thanks a lot! : D
brb

Sam

tyt

Jamil

OK, I’m back
Thanks so much for waiting

Sam

welcome back & may god accept ur prayer

Jamil

Ameen!

Sam

so u asked me to show an example on why i think muhammad is a false prophet

Jamil

Yeah, sure

Sam

as muslims, we believe in the Torah and the injil, both got corrupted ; could be , its debatable , many centuries passed by and they might really edited or changed

Jamil

the reason why i believe torah is not corrupted is that muhamamd judged two jews who committed zina based on what the torah says according to an authentic hadith

Jamil

and as you know the dead sea scrolls that were found and date back to before jesus time were examined , and they found that the torah we have today matches the torah in dead sea scrolls

Jamil

so i believe that the Torah we have today is , let’s say 99% authentic
nothing is perfect
so I’m gonna show u verses from the Torah that Moses spoke

Jamil

Deuteronomy 18
15 The Lord your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among you, from your fellow Israelites. You must listen to him. 16 For this is what you asked of the Lord your God at Horeb on the day of the assembly when you said, “Let us not hear the voice of the Lord our God nor see this great fire anymore, or we will die.”

Jamil

17 The Lord said to me: “What they say is good.
18 I will raise up for them a prophet like you from among their fellow Israelites, and I will put my words in his mouth. He will tell them everything I command him.
19 I myself will call to account anyone who does not listen to my words that the prophet speaks in my name.
20 But a prophet who presumes to speak in my name anything I have not commanded, or a prophet who speaks in the name of other gods, is to be put to death.”

Jamil

21 You may say to yourselves, “How can we know when a message has not been spoken by the Lord?” 22 If what a prophet proclaims in the name of the Lord does not take place or come true, that is a message the Lord has not spoken. That prophet has spoken presumptuously, so do not be alarmed.

Jamil

I don’t think these verses are somehow corrupted or edited or changed .. no reason that they could corrupt such verses
I believe they were truly spoken by Moses

Jamil

now according to what Moses say here, if a prophet utters words not from god then he’s a false prophet and should be put to death … Muhammad did speak words there were not from Allah but from Satan according Islamic commentaries and biographies (I’m sure u heard of the satanic verses)

Jamil

second , it says if this prophets prophecies something and didn’t come up true then he’s a false prophet .. there’s a lot of prophecies in authentic hadiths that did not come up true .. like the hadith where Muhammad says the Romans will be the majority of people etc..
so here u go , this is one example why I believe Muhammad is a false prophet

Jamil

Prophetic Commentary on the Qur’an (Tafseer of the Prophet (pbuh)) – كتاب التفسير » Hadith
Narrated Ibn `Abbas:
The Prophet (ﷺ) performed a prostration when he finished reciting Surat-an-Najm, and all the Muslims and pagans and Jinns and human beings prostrated along with him.

Jamil

حَدَّثَنَا أَبُو مَعْمَرٍ، حَدَّثَنَا عَبْدُ الْوَارِثِ، حَدَّثَنَا أَيُّوبُ، عَنْ عِكْرِمَةَ، عَنِ ابْنِ عَبَّاسٍ ـ رضى الله عنهما ـ قَالَ سَجَدَ النَّبِيُّ صلى الله عليه وسلم بِالنَّجْمِ وَسَجَدَ مَعَهُ الْمُسْلِمُونَ وَالْمُشْرِكُونَ وَالْجِنُّ وَالإِنْسُ‏.‏ تَابَعَهُ ابْنُ طَهْمَانَ عَنْ أَيُّوبَ‏.‏ وَلَمْ يَذْكُرِ ابْنُ عُلَيَّةَ ابْنَ عَبَّاسٍ‏.‏
USC-MSA web (English) reference : Vol. 6, Book 60, Hadith 385
Arabic reference : Book 65, Hadith 4862

Jamil

Thanks so much for that, I’d like to address them in order if I may

Sam

yes please , feel free to

Jamil

First,
I’d like to respond to that hadith:
Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him said in the hadith: فَأُتِيَ بِهَا فَنَزَعَ الْوِسَادَةَ مِنْ تَحْتِهِ فَوَضَعَ التَّوْرَاةَ عَلَيْهَا ثُمَّ قَالَ ‏”‏ آمَنْتُ بِكِ وَبِمَنْ أَنْزَلَكِ ‏
It was then brought. He then withdrew the cushion from beneath him and placed the Torah on it saying: I believed in thee and in Him Who revealed thee.

Sam

This is a confirmation that the Torah was indeed revealed by Allah and that Allah is our lord. In any Muslim state, if two people of the book dispute over a matter, they can judge based on their scripture. So judging the two Jews based on what was in the Torah was the correct thing to do and should still be done today.

Sam

If you say that The Torah is 99% authentic, then you agree that 1% is not authentic. What God reveals needs to remain perfect or a new revelation needs to be sent to mankind, otherwise mankind would be lost and following something incorrect.

Sam

We can see this with all the prior revelations.. After the texts were lost and people started going astray, a new revelation was sent. With The Quran Allah vowed to protect it, thus there is no need for another messenger until the day of judgement

Sam

As for the dead sea scrolls, some of them may have some authentic information, others may not… but it should have any sway in an argument, because they are only snippets of information and are not a complete picture in any respect

Sam

but you’re missing the point that if its corrupted then Muhammad shouldn’t judge passed on what the torah says

Jamil

He is obligated to
Because the Jews who came to be judged follow the Torah and they are people of the book
This is a leeway granted to The Jews and The Christians whom follow their scriptures

Sam

We know they are corrupted, however if they wish to judge between themselves based on it, then we allow them to do so

Sam

It does not in any way affect Islam itself, rather it is just a concession extended to them as people who have been given scripture and follow it

Sam

Also when you mention that Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him spoke words that were not from Allah… What exactly are you referring to? Because we agree that he was just a Human right? So He would have his daily affairs where he could go and ask what is the price of meat or whatever and then he can be given revelation which is from God

Sam

So what he claims to be revelation from God is the only thing that we should consider when judging based on what you showed from The Torah
Correct?

Sam

SAHIH INTERNATIONAL 5:43
But how is it that they come to you for judgement while they have the Torah, in which is the judgement of Allah ? Then they turn away, [even] after that; but those are not [in fact] believers.

Jamil

Ibn ‘Umar said:
some jews came to the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) and mentioned to him that a man and a women of their number had committed fornication. The Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) asked them: What do you find in the Torah about stoning? They replied: We disgrace them and they should be flogged. ‘Abd Allah b. Salam said: You lie; it contains (instruction for) stoning. So they brought the Torah and spread it out, and one of them put his hand over the verse of stoning and read what preceded it and what followed it. ‘Abd Allah b. Salam said to him: Lift your hand. When he did so, the verse of stoning was seen to be in it. They then said: He has spoken the truth, Muhammad, the verse of stoning is in it. The Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) then gave command regarding them, and they were stoned to death. ‘Abd Allah b. ‘Umar said: I saw the man leaning on the woman protecting her from the stones.

Jamil

حدَّثَنَا عَبْدُ اللَّهِ بْنُ مَسْلَمَةَ، قَالَ قَرَأْتُ عَلَى مَالِكِ بْنِ أَنَسٍ عَنْ نَافِعٍ، عَنِ ابْنِ عُمَرَ، أَنَّهُ قَالَ إِنَّ الْيَهُودَ جَاءُوا إِلَى النَّبِيِّ صلى الله عليه وسلم فَذَكَرُوا لَهُ أَنَّ رَجُلاً مِنْهُمْ وَامْرَأَةً زَنَيَا فَقَالَ لَهُمْ رَسُولُ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم ‏ “‏ مَا تَجِدُونَ فِي التَّوْرَاةِ فِي شَأْنِ الزِّنَا ‏”‏ ‏.‏ فَقَالُوا نَفْضَحُهُمْ وَيُجْلَدُونَ ‏.‏ فَقَالَ عَبْدُ اللَّهِ بْنُ سَلاَمٍ كَذَبْتُمْ إِنَّ فِيهَا الرَّجْمَ ‏.‏ فَأَتَوْا بِالتَّوْرَاةِ فَنَشَرُوهَا فَجَعَلَ أَحَدُهُمْ يَدَهُ عَلَى آيَةِ الرَّجْمِ ثُمَّ جَعَلَ يَقْرَأُ مَا قَبْلَهَا وَمَا بَعْدَهَا فَقَالَ لَهُ عَبْدُ اللَّهِ بْنُ سَلاَمٍ ارْفَعْ يَدَكَ ‏.‏ فَرَفَعَهَا فَإِذَا فِيهَا آيَةُ الرَّجْمِ فَقَالُوا صَدَقَ يَا مُحَمَّدُ فِيهَا آيَةُ الرَّجْمِ ‏.‏ فَأَمَرَ بِهِمَا رَسُولُ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم فَرُجِمَا ‏.‏ قَالَ عَبْدُ اللَّهِ بْنُ عُمَرَ فَرَأَيْتُ الرَّجُلَ يَحْنِي عَلَى الْمَرْأَةِ يَقِيهَا الْحِجَارَةَ ‏.‏
Grade : Sahih (Al-Albani)

Jamil

They asked Muhammad to judge them, Muhammad told them to get the torah according to the hadith
also Quran makes it clear that Jews should judge based on what the torah says , doesn’t this prove that torah is authentic according to Quran?

Jamil

Yes, like I mentioned earlier, this is how an Islamic state is run, just look at the verse before what you sent me:

Sam

Sahih International
[They are] avid listeners to falsehood, devourers of [what is] unlawful. So if they come to you, [O Muhammad], judge between them or turn away from them. And if you turn away from them – never will they harm you at all. And if you judge, judge between them with justice. Indeed, Allah loves those who act justly.
5:42

Sam

In Islam we know that The Quran is from Allah and the people of the book were given scriptures prior to us and there is some truth still in them
We also know that these books were corrupted, so we ourselves can never follow them

Sam

We also know though, that some Jews and Christians live their lives by these books and Allah has given them permission to judge between themselves using these books (as they follow them and do not believe in The Quran)
We still know they are not believers as they have rejected Islam

Sam

wait can u explain verse 42 and what it has to do with 43
We also know though, that some Jews and Christians live their lives by these books and Allah has given them permission to judge between themselves using these books (as they follow them and do not believe in The Quran) <<< ok this makes sense
I agree with u

Jamil

Verse 42 tells Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him to judge between them if they come to him seeking a ruling. So a Muslim ruler can rule between two people of the book, and the ruling can come from their scripture
Verse 43 shows that even when they know what the truth is, they still turn away from it

Sam

you’re right ,, but idk i think of it this way; that if the torah was corrupted then that was the perfect time and place for allah to reveal a verse stating that or for muhammad to actually say that

Jamil

Because they always had the answer in The Torah for that specific ruling (As you showed in the hadith) but they tried to cover the truth up to get a different ruling

Sam

yes when the jew hid what the verse says with his finger

Jamil

Yeah
Well, verse 40 of that same chapter mentions their distortion of the truth as well

Sam

Sahih International
O Messenger, let them not grieve you who hasten into disbelief of those who say, “We believe” with their mouths, but their hearts believe not, and from among the Jews. [They are] avid listeners to falsehood, listening to another people who have not come to you. They distort words beyond their [proper] usages, saying “If you are given this, take it; but if you are not given it, then beware.” But he for whom Allah intends fitnah – never will you possess [power to do] for him a thing against Allah . Those are the ones for whom Allah does not intend to purify their hearts. For them in this world is disgrace, and for them in the Hereafter is a great punishment.

Sam

“They distort words beyond their [proper] usages, saying “If you are given this, take it; but if you are not given it, then beware.”

Sam

verse 41*

Jamil

So we know in Islam 100% that prior scriptures were altered

Sam

Yes, verse 41, thats right, thanks
We can see it from The Quran, from hadith, historically, logically, etc
There is no doubt in that

Sam

So the question boils down, for now, to what do you believe is the closest thing to the truth?

Sam

what about what Moses said in Deuteronomy

Jamil

What is said there actually proves Muhammad peace be upon him to be a prophet

Sam

how

Jamil

Because Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him never told a lie about revelation

Sam

but didn’t muhammad deliver the satanic verses
تلك الغرانيق العلى وان شفاعتهم لترتجى
and later on said that it was satan who put those words in his mouth
and because he recited those verses , pagans bowed down with him as we see in commentaries and biographies

Jamil

These are narrated in super weak hadith ^_^
As Muslims we will be the first people to tell others that there are hadith that are correct and ones that are false
And there are some in between that may be true or not

Sam

22:52-53
“Never have We sent a single prophet or apostle before you with whose wishes Satan did not tamper. But God abrogates the interjections of Satan and confirms His own revelations. God is all-knowing and wise. He makes Satan’s interjections a temptation for those whose hearts are diseased, whose hearts are hardened …

Jamil

Sahih International
And We did not send before you any messenger or prophet except that when he spoke [or recited], Satan threw into it [some misunderstanding]. But Allah abolishes that which Satan throws in; then Allah makes precise His verses. And Allah is Knowing and Wise.
I think the “Some Misunderstanding” part plays a huge role in the translation
53: Sahih International

Sam

[That is] so He may make what Satan throws in a trial for those within whose hearts is disease and those hard of heart. And indeed, the wrongdoers are in extreme dissension.

Sam

its ok I can read it in Arabic (I’m an Arab)

Jamil

Ah in that case I don’t need to explain
You can see it for yourself in the verse : D
Satan is not able to change the words of Allah, but he can make the people misunderstand by throwing doubt into their understanding of it

Sam

ok it says satan throw misunderstanding ; like the satanic verses

Jamil

There are no “satanic verses” though

Sam

I mean why the pagans bowed down with the believers

Jamil

Because in that moment they were enraptured by The Quran
As you know The Quran has a beautiful melody throughout, and the meaning flows in a beautiful way
And it was revealed in a time when poetry was the biggest thing in the Arab world

Sam

but they enraptured by chapter An najm where its alleged that the satanic verses were

Jamil

So when they listened to these verses they were affect by it and bowed down with Prophet Muhamad peace be upon him

Sam

In fact, because they bowed down, some Muslims who emigrated away from the persecution in makkah came back thinking all of the pagans became Muslim
It is not a satanic verse, but rather they were affected by the words of Allah

Sam

is there any proof on what u say from some commentary ?
because so far i read the opposite

Jamil

There is, have you read Tafsir ibn kathir?

Sam

no I read biographies

Jamil

OK, I’ll try get you the excerpt from it, one moment

Sam

zamakhshari tafseer mentions it also
(zamakhshari tafseer on the verse i just sent u)
also its mentioned in Tabari

Jamil

(So fall you down in prostration to Allah and worship Him.) meaning, with submission, sincerity, and Tawhid. Al-Bukhari recorded that Abu Ma`mar said that `Abdul-Warith said that Ayyub said that `Ikrimah said that, Ibn `Abbas said, “The Prophet prostrated upon reciting An-Najm and the Muslims, idolators, Jinns and mankind who were present prostrated along with him.” Only Muslim collected this Hadith.

Sam

Imam Ahmad recorded that Al-Muttalib bin Abi Wada`ah said, “While in Makkah, the Messenger of Allah once recited Surat An-Najm, then prostrated along with all those who were with him at the time. I raised my head, however, and I refused to prostrate.” Al-Muttalib had not embraced Islam yet, but ever since he became Muslim, he would never hear anyone recite this Surah until the end, without prostrating with whomever was prostrating after reciting it. An-Nasa’i also collected this Hadith in the Book of Al-Bukhari, excluding prayer in his Sunan.

Sam

This is an abbreviation from the actual text
Let me try get you the original

Sam

ثم قال آمرا لعباده بالسجود له والعبادة المتابعة لرسوله – صلى الله عليه وسلم – والتوحيد والإخلاص : ( فاسجدوا لله واعبدوا ) أي : فاخضعوا له وأخلصوا ووحدوا .
قال البخاري : حدثنا أبو معمر ، حدثنا عبد الوارث ، حدثنا أيوب ، عن عكرمة ، عن ابن عباس قال : سجد النبي – صلى الله عليه وسلم – بالنجم ، وسجد معه المسلمون والمشركون والجن والإنس . انفرد به دون مسلم .
وقال الإمام أحمد : حدثنا إبراهيم بن خالد ، حدثنا رباح ، عن معمر ، عن ابن طاوس ، عن عكرمة بن خالد ، عن جعفر بن المطلب بن أبي وداعة ، عن أبيه قال : قرأ رسول الله – صلى الله عليه وسلم – بمكة سورة النجم ، فسجد وسجد من عنده ، فرفعت رأسي وأبيت أن أسجد ، ولم يكن أسلم يومئذ المطلب ، فكان بعد ذلك لا يسمع أحدا يقرؤها إلا سجد معه .

Sam

where does it say that they were amazed

Jamil

It doesn’t say anywhere in the hadith that they were amazed
It just mentions that He and everyone around him fell in prostration when they heard the final verse of the chapter

Sam

pagans fought muhammad fiercely, there must be something that made them prostrate with muhammad , i dont think its the beauty of Quran because they always used to accuse him of copying old myths اساطير الاولين … i could be wrong though

Jamil

Well we know that the pagans of Quraish believed in Allah
They used to say so themselves
However they also worshiped other idols
The verse the fell in prostration to was: فَاسْجُدُوا لِلَّهِ وَاعْبُدُوا

Sam

yes and they believed in three daughters , so when muhamamd recited افرأيم اللات والعزى …. تلك الغرانيق العلى .. it makes sense that they prostrated

Jamil

Which is something that doesn’t actually go against their beliefs

Sam

I’m sry , do u speak arabic?

Jamil

I do

Sam

im quoting in arabic
oh ok

Jamil

That’s fine
🙂
Thanks for asking! : D

Sam

you welcome
it could be what u say is true

Jamil

I’d like to point out though that what we have so far is simply proof that they prostrated to this verse
There is nothing to indicate anything with satan
Do you agree with that?

Sam

true , but its mentioned in several places , like in tabari volume 6, page 107

Jamil

Ah, may you please quote it for me

Sam

Jamil

The volume pages differ according to publisher, it would take me a while to find it >_<

Sam

Ibn Humayd – Salamah-Muhammad b. Ishaq – Yazid b. Ziyad al-Madani – Muhammad b. Ka’b al-Qurazi: When the messenger of God saw how his tribe turned their backs on him and was grieved to see them shunning the message he had brought to them from God, he longed in his soul that something would come to him from God which would reconcile him with his tribe. With his love for his tribe and his eagerness for their welfare it would have delighted him if some of the difficulties which they made for him could have been smoothed out, and he debated with himself and fervently desired such an outcome.

Jamil

Then God revealed:(171)
“By the Star when it sets, your comrade does not err, nor is he deceived; nor does he speak out of (his own) desire…”
and when he came to the words:
Have you thought upon al-Lat and al-Uzza and Manat, the third, the other?
Satan cast on his tongue, because of his inner debates and what he desired to bring to his people, the words:
“These are the high flying cranes; verily their intercession is accepted with approval. (172)

Jamil

When Quraysh heard this, they rejoiced and were happy and delighted at the way in which he spoke of their gods, and they listened to him, while the Muslims, having complete trust in their prophet in respect of the messages which he brought from God, did not suspect him of error, illusion, or mistake. When he came to the prostration, having completed the surah, he prostrated himself and the Muslims did likewise, following their prophet, trusting in the message which he had brought and following his example.

Jamil

Those polytheists of the Quraysh and others who were in the mosque (173) likewise prostrated themselves because of the reference to their gods which they had heard, so that there was no one in the mosque, believer orunbeliever, who did not prostrate himself. The one exception was al-Walid b. Al-Mughirah, who was a very old man and could not prostrate himself; but he took a handful of soil from the valley in his hand and bowed over that. Then they all dispersed from the mosque. The Quraysh left delighted by the mention of their gods which they had hared, saying,”Muhammad has mentioned our goes in the most favorable way possible, stating in his recitation that they are the high flying cranes and that their intercession is received with approval.”

Jamil

The news of the prostration reached those of the messenger of God’s companions who were in Abyssinia and people said, “The Quraysh have accepted Islam.” Some rose up to return, while others remained behind. Then Gabriel came to the Messenger of God and said, “Muhammad, what have you done? You have recited to the people that which I did not bring to you from God, and you have said that which was not said to you.”

Jamil

Then the messenger of God was much grieved and feared God greatly, but God sent down a revelation to him, for He was merciful to him, consoling him and making the matter light for him, informing him that there had never been a prophet or a messenger before him who desired as he desired and wished as he wished but that Satan had cast words into his recitation, as he had cast words on Muhammad’s tongue. Then God cancelled what Satan had thus cast, and established his verses by telling him that he was like other prophets and messengers, and revealed:

Jamil

“Never did we send a messenger or a prophet before you but that when he recited (the Message) Satan cast words into his recitation (umniyyah). God abrogates what Satan casts. The God established his verses. God is knower, wise. (174)

Jamil

Thus God removed the sorrow from his messenger, reassured him about that which he had feared and cancelled the words which Satan had cast on his tongue, that their gods were the high flying cranes whose intercession was accepted with approval. He now revealed, following the mention of “al-Lat, al-Uzza and Manat, the third, the other,” the words:
“Are yours the males and his the females? That indeed were an unfair division! They are but names which you have named, you and your fathers.”
to the words:
to whom he wills and accept (175)

Jamil

Give me a moment to check this, it comes from an anti-Islam site and so far 100% of the things that come to me from them have had the meaning altered by their own additions
So I’ll just need a few moments
Sorry for that >_<

Sam

yes its from answering islam website i can give u the link

Jamil

Thanks!
Sorry for the delay, almost there

Sam

its alright, i can wait, tyt

Jamil

I finally found the tafsir on that verse, phew, that took ages, sorry
The first chapter in there is this sura ” al-najm”

Sam

The story seems to have no basis in any verse of Quran or authentic hadith

Sam

When making decisions about what is from God and what is not, we should limit ourselves to deciding based on what we know is true and not on what we have doubts in

Sam

just a moment pls, im checking

Jamil

Oh, ok, no worries, tyt

Sam

ok , can you please see Tabari Tafseer to 22:52

Jamil

yeah its not in chapter in An-najm

Jamil

Have you thought upon al-Lat and al-Uzza and Manat, the third, the other?
Satan cast on his tongue, because of his inner debates and what he desired to bring to his people, the words:
“These are the high flying cranes; verily their intercession is accepted with approval. (172)

Sam

This was the quote
The first verse is : Have you thought upon al-Lat and al-Uzza and Manat, the third, the other?
That is verse 19 in al-najm
The verse for prostration is in verse 62

Sam

So between the mentioning of this verse where it is claimed that quraysh was rejoiced with this and the prostration verse comes this:
Sahih International
Is the male for you and for Him the female?
Sahih International
That, then, is an unjust division.

Sam

Sahih International
They are not but [mere] names you have named them – you and your forefathers – for which Allah has sent down no authority. They follow not except assumption and what [their] souls desire, and there has already come to them from their Lord guidance.
Sahih International
Or is there for man whatever he wishes?
Sahih International
Rather, to Allah belongs the Hereafter and the first [life].

Sam

Meaning after they hear this, they would no longer be “happy” with what has been said about their Gods
The reason I mention this before moving on is because this story that we are looking at has no authentic basis in hadith or Quran
So we need to evaluate whether it can even be true in the first place

Sam

its in Tabari
its also in ibn kathir
same verse

Jamil

checking it now

Sam

its also in Qurtoby
just checked all three of the tafseers ..
you can’t find the tafseer in chapter alnaajm because the deleted/abrogated verses from satan aren’t there anymore and were replaced by other verses

Jamil

I’m reading through the tafsir of the verse now

Sam

ok , thank you

Jamil

OK, I’ve found an extensive answer alhamduillah
It has the tafsir at the top and the commentary on it below, so scroll down a bit to find it, it starts here:
قوله تعالى : وما أرسلنا من قبلك من رسول ولا نبي إلا إذا تمنى ألقى الشيطان في أمنيته فينسخ الله ما يلقي الشيطان ثم يحكم الله آياته والله عليم حكيم
فيه ثلاث مسائل :

That’s the website ^

Sam

so bottomline is; it seemed to the pagans that muhamamd uttered those words
they were deceived by satan
and the rest of hadiths aren’t authentic

Jamil

It can’t be used as evidence of anything because the hadiths aren’t authentic to begin with and there are so many unknowns that even in this very conversation we have been sitting here trying to make sense of what actually happened… Something like that can’t be used as proof for anything

Sam

We need to judge based on the facts that we have, and at the end of this discussion, we’re still back at the fact that there is nothing to prove prophet Muhammad peace be upon him was a false prophet

Sam

ok that’s confusing, it shouldn’t be in the tafseer if the story is unauthentic

Jamil

what about the other part of what Moses said, that if a prophecy didn’t come up true then the prophet is a false one

Jamil

Could you give me one prophecy of Muhammad that came up true?

Jamil

The thing is the tafseer commentaries, and even in the biography of the prophet books, they use hadiths which are not 100% authentic to help build the picture of what people said and what might have happened, so the person can learn all about what was said on the topic

Sam

Sure, Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him told the Muslims that they would defeat the persians
And that came at a time when persia was still an empire and the Muslims were still struggling to defend against Quraish
Another Arab tribe

Sam

The hypocrites at the time were joking about it… like how can he say something like that and we can’t even beat the pagans…

Sam

Then in the time of Umar, the Muslim army defeated the Persian empire… While fighting both the persian and roman empires at the same time…

Sam

yea i remember that Muhammad promised one of those who followed him that he will be rewarded with treasures of كسرى

Jamil

Yeah, that’s right
And they saw that person wearing some of the treasures (i think it was a bracelet?) after they won

Sam

yea and Umar took it from him, ( I remember it from Umar series ) 🙂
TV series

Jamil

Alhamduillah

Sam

idk if u seen it

Jamil

Nah, haven’t seen it
How do you feel after this though?
Do you feel that prophet Muhammad peace be upon him was more likely a prophet than not?

Sam

to be honest , I’m happy now
I feel relief and there’s a smile on my face , you proved me wrong

Jamil

Jamil, you just brought tears to my eyes haha, may God guide us both to the truth

Sam

well, there’s still other issues , but yeah I think if I dig further like we just did , I could reach another conclusion

Jamil

So my dear brother, would you then consider re-stating the shahada, so that you can continue your search on these issues as a Muslim? : )

Sam

Why don’t muslim scholars then stop people like david wood and others and refute all their claims on Islam one by one?

Jamil

haven’t seen any muslim standing up to them
they responsible for lots of muslims leaving Islam

Jamil

Actually there are some refutation sites for these ideas, and people have debated with them, and we (although not scholars) are faced with trying to refute these claims on a daily basis

Sam

There are a couple of websites that try to do so, would you like their links?

Sam

YES
pls

Jamil

https://www.icraa.org/
I can’t guarantee everything on the site as we have no affilation with them
But it seems they try their best to make the truth of these claims clear : )

Sam

So what do you think dear brother? : )
Would you like to continue the search as a Muslim? : )

Sam

Yes I think so

Jamil

In that case my dear brother, please say and then type this:
I bear witness that there is no God worthy of worship except Allah alone and that Mohammed is his prophet and messenger.

Sam

Also, please say and type it in Arabic : “Ash-Hadu an La iLaha illal-Lah, Wa Ash-Hadu Anna Muhammadan Rasulullah.”

Sam

And I would then love to call you my brother in Islam 🙂

Sam

you know I had a terrible time the last 4 months with Muslims, they called me all kind of names and accusations, it was really bad although as you seen I give chance to anyone to show me the truth and me myself still seeking the truth , during these 4 months when i was studying Christianity one quote from Jesus was hanged on my mind “they will hate you for the sake of my name” – because I also used to tell them what the bible says in return

Jamil

you’re the first one who actually took my criticism seriously and had the time to actually go through this with me, so I really thank u a lot for doing that

Jamil

however, I think there’s a lot of other issues, like this was only one example, there’s tons of others that I need to come to conclusion with before i truly become a muslim again , as these issues still controlling my mind

Jamil

You know it’s really depressing to see stories of how Muslims turn against their brothers when they have doubts. When your brother has doubts and questions you should spend the time to try to help him get to the truth, not revile him
But I would like to remind you of something important

Sam

You know this as well as I do, but to become a Muslim you need only believe in 1 God and that Muhammad peace be upon him was a messenger
Having that, at least, would guarantee you (eventually) paradise, even if you go to hellfire first
Not having it is guaranteed hellfire : (

Sam

I have no problems going though these issues with you one by one whenever you come online, it would be my pleasure!

Sam

Christians say the same

Jamil

True, but you and I both know that Christianity is false
Just one look at the bible and you are drowning in contradictions

Sam

You yourself admitted earlier that no other religion seems closer to the truth
And if you still hold that belief, then why not just start with that?
Why not start as “A Muslim with some questions”

Sam

no matter how hard I tried, the idea of the triune God didn’t make any sense, even christians themselves don’t understand it well

Jamil

And then slowly move through those questions until you are satisfied
We can only make decisions based on what we have in front of us brother

Sam

So right now, you should make a decision based on what you know for sure, and then deal with the doubts one by one

Sam

It’s hard to practice Islam again, I need to clear at least 50% of my doubts
like I have doubts even about the slightest things Muhammad said

Jamil

You know, there is a trick to dealing with some of these doubts

Sam

Abu Hurairah (May Allah be pleased with him) reported:
The Prophet (ﷺ) said, “What is below the ankles of a lower garment is condemned to the Fire (Hell).”
[Al-Bukhari].
وعنه عن النبي صلى الله عليه وسلم قال‏:‏ ‏ “‏ما أسفل من الكعبين من الإزار ففي النار‏”‏ ‏.‏
and so many others …

Jamil

This is in relation to a garment which is worn below the ankles out of pride

Sam

pride?

Jamil

Yeah
So someone who is proud and arrogant wears a long thowb or pants that goes past his ankles to the floor
This extra, worn out of pride, is punished
The person is punished for **

Sam

The hadith is explained when ABu Bakr came and asked about it
Because his Izar would slip below his ankles because he was so thin

Sam

Thank you

Jamil

No worries, my pleasure

Sam

someone quote that hadith and made fun of it without mentioning its context

Jamil

Brother, there are Christian missionaries that dress as Muslims and act Muslim in Muslim countries to try and convert people to Christianity
They way they conduct themselves in such a sly way is truly evil

Sam

They mention something out of context, or change its meaning slightly, or show an incorrect translation (to English speaking people)
And they make people doubt their religion

Sam

But as you have seen, when these ideas are hashed out, the answer is always there, and often times, very simple
Which is why I am trying to push you to act on what you know for sure for now, and then deal with these things as they come

Sam

You know nothing is closer to the truth than Islam
But you have some questions / doubts
These questions & doubts are not from proof, but from wanting to learn and find the truth
Which is something good!

Sam

But doing this search while not a Muslim is so dangerous
You never know when death comes, you may perhaps one day get tired of searching and just stop, and then what : (

Sam

Don’t you think it’s best to continue searching as a Muslim than not?
And Jamil, you can always come here to get answers to your questions in sha Allah
We would love to help

Sam

ok
you’re right

Jamil

Then brother, may you please say and then type this:
I bear witness that there is no God worthy of worship except Allah alone and that Mohammed is his prophet and messenger.
Also, please say and type it in Arabic : “Ash-Hadu an La iLaha illal-Lah, Wa Ash-Hadu Anna Muhammadan Rasulullah.”

Sam

I am here every Saturday, Sunday & Monday at this time if you want to ask me specifically (In sha Allah)
And we have other agents online almost 20 hours a day, so you can almost always find someone to discuss issues with

Sam

أشهد أن لا إله إلا الله وأشهد أن محمد عبده ورسوله

Jamil

Thank you sam

Jamil

Congratulations by dear brother Jamil
Honestly I love you for the sake of Allah, you are one of the few people that have come with doubts and have been willing to listen to my responses
Often times they just want to attack
But you were truly willing to listen

Sam

I would love to discuss any issues you have or questions, whenever you come online
So please always feel free to log on and ask me or any of my brothers and sisters on this chat system

Sam

May Allah keep us firm in our religion and put our hearts and minds at ease with any questions or doubts

Sam

I will try to come back tomorrow and bring some of the other arguments (if i couldn’t find a response to them in the links u sent me)
Amen ,,, Thanks a lot man

Jamil

No worries, I’ll be waiting in sha Allah 🙂

Sam

Have a blessed day brother 🙂

Jamil

You too : )
Assalam Alaykum ^_^

Sam

02:17:37 pm

Jamil rated the chat as good

008 Dialog Between Ismail, Jamil And Sam

008 Dialog Between Ismail, Jamil And Sam

CONTENTS